TeachLab with Justin Reich

Dr. Ilana Horn

Episode Summary

Dr. Ilana Horn joins Justin Reich to discuss finding the strengths in every student, listening more closely to student thinking, and finding ways to shift curriculum from “school math” to the kind of math that’s both more engaging to students and closer to what real mathematicians do. Dr. Horn offers a slew of concrete strategies for teachers and teacher educators, from roster audits, to “becoming invisible” to mediated field experiences.

Episode Notes

Dr. Ilana Horn joins Justin Reich to discuss finding the strengths in every student, listening more closely to student thinking, and finding ways to shift curriculum from “school math” to the kind of math that’s both more engaging to students and closer to what real mathematicians do. Dr. Horn offers a slew of concrete strategies for teachers and teacher educators, from roster audits, to “becoming invisible” to mediated field experiences.


About Our Guest: Dr. Ilana Horn

Ilana Seidel Horn is Professor of Mathematics Education at Vanderbilt University's Peabody College, where her research and teaching center on ways to make authentic mathematics accessible to students, particularly those who have historically been disenfranchised by our educational system. She is the author of Motivated: Designing Math Classrooms Where Students Want to Join In and Strength in Numbers: Collaborative Learning in Secondary Mathematics.


Additional Resources for Teachers and other Listeners

Motivated: Designing Math Classrooms Where Students Want to Join In - Read Dr. Ilana Horn’s Book

http://ilanahorn.com/#bio - Learn more about Dr. Horn’s work

An Asset-Orientation is Everything - Watch Dr. Ilana Horn’s lecture





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Becoming a More Equitable Educator: Mindsets and Practices


Produced by Aimee Corrigan and Garrett Beazley

Edited by Kate Ellis

Recorded and Mixed by Garrett Beazley

Filmed by Denez McAdoo


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Episode Transcription

Justin Reich:                 Kids bring so many strengths to the classroom every day. They bring their curiosity, their resilience, their fresh eyes, their insight. How do we as teachers build on that?

Dr. Ilana Horn:              It's sort of just a human truism in psychology that we don't grow where we're not loved, and so if you don't have a connection with a child over something that is good about them, something that you like about them, something that you can celebrate about them, you're not going to help them grow.

Justin Reich:                 From the Teaching Systems Lab at MIT, this is TeachLab, a podcast about the art and craft of teaching. I'm Justin Reich. Today, Dr. Ilana Horn, who goes by Lani. She's a professor of math education at Vanderbilt University. Her research focuses on how to teach math to students in a way that gets them to fall in love with the subject, and how to teach students in a way that promotes equity in the classroom. Lani's a big advocate of asset framing. Thinking about the strengths our students bring to school every day.

Justin Reich:                 Lani, thank you so much for joining us this afternoon.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Thank you, Justin, for having me here.

Justin Reich:                 We're really excited to talk with you about the work that you've done in mathematics education and teacher education, and particularly how we drive math teaching towards a vision of education that's more equitable, more inclusive, more rewarding to all kids, not just a subset of them. But it might be helpful for our listeners to start a little bit with how did you get into teaching? What was your starting point? What were some of your earliest experiences as a teacher?

Dr. Ilana Horn:              I got into teaching because I discovered late in life ... Well, by the time I got to college I discovered that all those things that I was doing recreationally were actually what mathematicians do, and if you had asked me my freshman year what I thought of math learning, I didn't like it very much. But all the games I was playing, all the puzzles I was solving, all the Escher I was geeking out on, those were all very mathy things and that was much more like what mathematicians did then the curriculum I studied in school. I kind of felt like a great injustice had been done and surely there were other kids out there like me who could find math really cool and engaging, and probably did, but didn't realize it was math because it wasn't being called that in math class. So I went into teaching math with the hopes of bringing more beautiful, exciting, lovely math to engage more kids in the enjoyment of the discipline.

Justin Reich:                 What were some of the early successes or challenges that you had in bringing sort of real math into school math?

Dr. Ilana Horn:              I was very lucky because I deliberately told the person who was overseeing our student teaching placements, I said, "I know schools are complicated. Can I go in some place where I can try to figure this problem out of getting kids to do cool math?" I worked in two independent schools. One was a hippie school on a farm, but the other where I really did my full student teaching was a Quaker school where I was given a lot of latitude to design curriculum. We somehow convinced my cooperating teacher to let me do a unit on infinity with the kids, so I set up the classroom as learning centers. They did a bunch of different explorations on infinity and they had to do a culminating project, and then we had a debate at the end about whether infinity could fit in your pocket. There's a lot of things I would have changed about it. It was definitely a learning experience. But overall, my goal of getting kids to think math was cool and beautiful and worthwhile, it was pretty effective for a lot of kids.

Justin Reich:                 So you develop early on these ideas about engagement, about real math and beautiful math versus the thing that becomes school math, what happens when you bring these ideas as a public school teacher.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              It went better with the kids than the adults, let me put it that way. The class I was most eager to tackle was geometry because geometry as content has so much beautiful math in it. I was teaching out of a book that was basically algebra exercises masked in geometry. So there was no real sense of Euclidean logic or how it even developed or what it even means, it was just ... Anyway-

Justin Reich:                 Keep doing algebra.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Yeah, but not on triangles. And so, I re-organized it to make it much more investigatory, to make it more inquiry oriented. I worked really hard to do that. The first couple of months, I had a bunch of kids who came and, "I hate math. Math [inaudible 00:04:32]." And then they were really active and really engaged, and somewhere around October, November my department chair came in and said, "What chapter are you on in geometry anyway?" I'm like, "Oh, I'm not on a chapter," and I was so proud of myself. I showed her the beautiful work the kids had done. I showed her the posters. I showed her all the cool connections they were making. And she just sort of looked at me and said, "If they are not all on chapter five by January you are going to be harming the children who need to switch classes."

Dr. Ilana Horn:              I was devastated because the last thing I wanted to do was harm children. I was a new teacher, I had no idea how common this was, when children switched teachers at the semester, but I certainly didn't want to harm anybody. So I kind of wheeled it back a little, dialed it back a little, and tried to follow the content sequence of the book but making it a little more equal. But it was a little artificial because the content sequence of the book really didn't follow the development of Euclidean geometry very well.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              I'll never forget ... I'm still in touch with this kid actually, because he was one of my "I hate math, I hate math" kids who got really engaged. I'll never forget, about a weekend of this, him sitting in the front of my class with his head in his hand like this and he said, "Ms. Horn, you know how you were teaching before? I think I learned better that way." It was kind of like ... one of the first knives in my gut as a teacher that kind of made me think there's got to be a better way here, like, we've got structural issues. Because if I as a first year teacher am getting kids who walk in the classroom saying they hate math to love math, then we obviously know enough as a field to be able to do this, but yet there's these structural institutional pressures that are working against that. And so that kind of became one of the things that pushed me toward wanting to do research.

Justin Reich:                 Are there through lines from that work into the kinds of research and work that you're doing with teachers right now? How do these ideas that you're sort of been stewing on for a lot of years, how are they coming to life for you right now?

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Well, I think one of the takeaways even just from that story is that teachers are in a really complicated position. We as researchers often have the privilege of isolating certain aspects of the classroom, certain factors, certain contextual variables, but they have to deal with everything all at once and they often don't have a lot of say over which conditions they get to have and which conditions they don't get to have. So I approach all of my work with a lot of humility, of that sort of contextual complexity of just how hard it is. Even if we give them the best curriculum materials, even if we give them the best professional development of making it a reality in the complicated institutions that schools are, that's just not a trivial thing.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              My latest thing that I've been saying is it's actually a complicated act of synthesis. Synthesis is usually the most complicated form of thinking, and we treat it as trivial when we hand teachers tools and say, "Go do this. Go do this in your classroom," because they have to figure out how to make it work with all the other moving parts. It is-

Justin Reich:                 With the particular kids they have, with the particular content, the school day, the bell schedule, the chairs they have in their room.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Exactly. All those very, very real, material, cultural specific things. I think that that's really one of the things that's foundational to the work I do.

Justin Reich:                 Something in your work that we've been reading and thinking a lot about is this idea of asset framing. Asset framing is kind of a central piece of what makes effective mathematics education, particularly for the kids like the ones you just described that sort of come in with an I hate math but we know for sure they could become an I love math kind of kid if they're given the right context exposure. Could you tell us a little bit about how you define asset framing and how you see it come alive when it does in math classrooms?

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Right. Obviously, the most obvious thing is that asset is the opposite of deficit. It's sort of a response to a pretty well documented phenomenon in literature that there are widespread deficit framings of children in schools that work against their engagement and work against their affinity with school, and so it's partly to define against, in contrast to that. But I think that the overall meaning is to really look for kids' strengths. If you think about how complicated human beings are, nobody's bad at everything, but school only gives kids a narrow set of things to show that they're good at.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              I think one of the challenges that I pose to teachers is what would it mean for your classroom ... what would your classroom need to look like in order for all the kids with all their various strengths to have a place at the table, to have something to offer that's meaningful, and what would your curriculum need to look like? What would the interactions need to look like? How would things need to be set up? It's, I think, an attempt to try to be more humanizing, to really be more welcoming and say that all kids belong here and you all have something to offer. And to really take that commitment and sort of play it out in all aspects of teaching.

Justin Reich:                 With your work with teachers as you're either helping to guide them or watching other people helping to guide towards this more strength-based, asset-based approach, what do you think are some of the most effective starting points? Is it about asking teachers to have conversations about certain topics, to watch certain kinds of teaching, to try certain kinds of practices? Do you have a sense of, if a math department head came up to you and said, "That sounds great, where should I start?" What would be some of your first pieces of advice to her?

Dr. Ilana Horn:              One of the things that I've done that's been pretty effective, and it's not that hard to do, is to ask teachers to take their rosters of the classes that they're currently teaching and see if they can go through and identify a strength for each child. There's really interesting things that surface from that exercise. Sometimes teachers realize things like, "There are certain kids in my class that I haven't really talked to enough to be able to answer this question." Sometimes they recognize patterns in, "I can say I really recognize these kinds of strengths, but I have a harder time recognizing the strengths of my quiet kids." Or, "I get so upset with the kids who act out that I can only see them as the bad kids and I forget to look for what they have to offer."

Dr. Ilana Horn:              But it's sort of just a human truism in psychology that we don't grow where we're not loved. And so if you don't have a connection with a child over something that is good about them, something that you like about them, something that you can celebrate about them, you're not going to help them grow. That's just true of any kind of human development in any context. So I think that pressing teachers to just look at the kids in front of them right now and to see where their blind spots are, because we all have them.

Justin Reich:                 And then trying to document those blind spots and try to fill them in with more knowledge, more [crosstalk 00:11:43].

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Exactly. And to try to think of, "Well, what's my next step?" If I'm the teacher who realizes I really don't know a subset of my kids, next week, next two weeks, make that you have a conversation with each of those children. No excuses, really figure it out. Talk to their other teachers. This is your job, this is what ... Sometimes what teachers say to me is, "Look, I have 200 kids." And I say, "That that sounds really, really hard." That's where I look to the way we organize schools and say, "Why are we giving teachers 200 kids? That's not reasonable. Not if we really, really are committed to these ideas."

Justin Reich:                 When you see teachers who go on this sort of developmental journey to being, "I don't think I'm taking as much of a strength-based approach as I could," to being more successful in adopting asset framing, if I walked into a classroom where this was happening really well, how would a math classroom look different than it would if it wasn't happening? What would be some of the indicators that I could look for that may go, "Oh, that's the kind of thing that I see now happening in this class that I might not have been able to see before."

Dr. Ilana Horn:              I think the first thing you see is teachers genuinely connecting with kids. Because again, going back to the thing I said, "If I know what's good about you, what there is to celebrate about you, when I say hello to you, I'm probably happier to see you and you feel that," just as one person to another. So you see more connection, you see less anxiety, more of a sense of belonging, kind of a pleasant climate. I think that's just the baseline. But the next challenge is really making that meaningful in your instruction, and I think that's a lot, lot harder to do.

Justin Reich:                 What does that look like in math as compared to English or social studies? Is it [crosstalk 00:13:24] the same or is it really distinctive to math [crosstalk 00:13:24]?

Dr. Ilana Horn:              No, I think that's exactly the right question. Because I think one of the things that teachers have to sort of retrain themselves on, in thinking about kids from an asset perspective, is the language of schooling lends itself to putting kids in kind of static categories. Here are the honors students, here are the kids who are below basic, and we offer teachers all this language that kind of reinscribes deficit ideas about who kids are.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              So just like they have to retrain themselves to see kids through new eyes, they have to retrain themselves to think about math differently. Because just like I told my own personal story about how all this stuff I was doing that wasn't really showing up in my math classrooms, that really was a lot more like what mathematicians do, the discipline is so, so rich, and the school version is kind of anemic. A lot of where we give kids the opportunity to show their strengths in math is by expanding what we think math is.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              School math is the part of math that values quick and accurate calculation. The discipline of math values so many other kinds of strengths and aptitudes that aren't typically in the school curriculum. Asking good questions, making really smart connections between ideas, developing a great representation of an idea, being systematic. There's things that if you look in the history of mathematics, those are really, really important ways of being smart. We live in a world where people have super computers in their pocket, maybe they're not technically super computers [crosstalk 00:15:03].

Justin Reich:                 They are super computers.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Are they?

Justin Reich:                 They're pretty super.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              They're pretty super. We have powerful computers in our pockets nowadays, so being quick and accurate at calculating, I'm a little perplexed that that is still the most valued kind of being smart in math, but it is. And all these other things that if you look in the history of mathematics have really moved the field forward, like the major, major developments, aren't around being quick and accurate. They're about these other kinds of competencies. Yet, we don't really give kids those opportunities in most math classes. So, the math piece of being asset-oriented is making the math in your classroom, that you value and that you engage in, rich enough that there's a lot of different paths in, and there's a lot of different ways to authentically and meaningfully be mathematically smart that matter.

Justin Reich:                 Do you have a couple of favorite ... Okay, I've totally bought into this, Lani. What's my first step to expand school math? What are a couple of these [inaudible 00:16:02] rich targets of richness? Things that I would read more or explore more or ...

Dr. Ilana Horn:              I think that the Shell Center has a really great website with a lot of good rich tasks, and there's some video support that shows teachers using the tasks in their classroom. There's a lot of really good tasks there. Illustrated Math has just developed a whole curriculum that's going to be downloadable for free. There is a lot of really great resources out there. Desmos, the graphing app that's free, also has a lot of stuff linked to it. Some really great activities. So these are all ways that kids can explore mathematical ideas in rich and meaningful ways.

Justin Reich:                 In your current research, what are some of the puzzles around this that remain most fascinating or perplexing to you? What's the next level of work in your own exploration of these ideas?

Dr. Ilana Horn:              I've spent about 20 years looking a lot at people who are either new teachers or new to this kind of instruction, and I was really interested in engaging with teachers who have been really committed for a long period of time. Experienced teachers who've already kind of bought in and demonstrated a commitment to what tends to be called ambitious math instruction, really making sure all kids have access to rich math content. The project I've been working on, we've been working with ... we have a sample of about 12 experienced math teachers and we've been doing a lot of documentation and feedback on their classroom instruction. Their tasks tend to be really good, they have great relationships with kids, their content knowledge is spectacular. They have so many things already in place. And so it's been fascinating to see what their next level of learning is.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              If I had to sort of sum up across all 12 teachers, I think that the thing that they are learning is to listen to kids better. That sounds scoldy but I don't mean it to be that way. I just mean that I think that it's easy when you're teaching, you're teaching five classes a day, you have this rotating cast of kids coming in and out, you plan your lesson, you want to execute it, you're trying to keep pace with the curriculum, all the things teachers are contending with, to kind of evaluate the success of a lesson based on sort of the public face of how smoothly it went.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              What I see our teachers learning is to listen more carefully as a lesson's going to hear the kinds of sense that kids are making and the kinds of questions they're asking. They're recognizing more their own patterns of circulating around the classroom, their patterns of who they interact with and who they give their attention to. Those are things that are really hard to learn in professional development because it takes a level of self-awareness that none of us have been endowed with.

Justin Reich:                 And it's very nuanced and situational, probably hard to describe. Part of what you're saying is that actually the surface features which are easiest to see might not be giving us the best information about how we're doing. It's really trying to elicit more of the deeper thinking and questioning that kids are doing.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Right. Well, I've kind of used, if you don't mind me getting a little scholarly here, but Erving Goffman's idea of the front stage and the backstage as kind of a metaphor. Erving Goffman's a sociologist who talked about how there's the front stage of life and there's a backstage, and there's also this other thing, but anyway ... I think that a lot of teachers sort of operate based on the feedback they're getting on the front stage, yet, especially by adolescents, I work mostly with secondary teachers, kids get extremely strategic of how they present to the teachers.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              One of my favorite videos, and the teacher had a wonderful sense of humor about it, it was toward the end of the school year, they're doing a review activity. This one group of kids is very intently talking about the prom and what they're going to wear and who's going with whom and all this stuff like that when they're supposed to be doing this review activity. As the teacher approaches the group, they switch into math gibberish, "Wait, so what's the slope of that line?" They just start saying things that sound like math. So she keeps on going and as soon as she's out of earshot, they go back to prom.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Kids are really, really smart and really, really strategic with how they manage the teacher's attention, both good and bad. So, what does it mean to be a teacher in the face of kids who are managing you in that way? Like, how do you get at what's really going on and what they're actually engaging with in your classroom? I think that's not a trivial question. Like I said, she had a great sense of humor and laughed really, really hard.

Justin Reich:                 I imagine most teachers who are listening to this can totally imagine many of their students ... Especially, I guess, secondary teachers [crosstalk 00:21:04] students performing similar things.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Yeah, I told my high school age daughter about that because I was laughing really hard and she's like, "Oh, I do that all the time." Yeah, apparently it's a thing. So if you didn't know that, now you know,

Justin Reich:                 Do you have strategies that you've seen effective teachers working with or that you've started working with teachers that sort of are like first steps towards getting more into that backstage of kids thinking? What are some ways that teachers can start checking themselves and holding themselves more accountable? [inaudible 00:21:31] "Did it not just go smoothly, but am I listening enough of the thinking that I need to understand that."

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Yeah, that's a great question. I think that a lot of times teachers feel like they're only teaching if they're doing something and they're interacting with kids. And I think we undervalue sometimes, just sitting back and listening. I, naturally, because of the way I'm wired, would sort of sometimes huddle down in a corner of my classroom and just close my eyes and listen to what different groups were talking about. I tried to make myself as invisible as a teacher can, it's not easy.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              I think though that when kids are really involved in something, they don't necessarily care where the teacher is, so you can kind of find a little corner and eavesdrop. I think we need to value eavesdropping a little bit more. Especially when kids ... we've handed off the math to the kids. We can really hear a lot about group dynamics. We can hear about who's contributing. And there's often lovely surprises in there because a kid who doesn't want to participate in whole class discussions at all is really eager to share with their peers. Even if you were just sort of surveying and scanning the classroom, their body language may not indicate to you the level of engagement and the richness of their contribution.

Justin Reich:                 Part of what I hear you saying ... to connect a couple of things you said is that when we as teachers change our practice, when we change our dynamics, it also opens up the opportunity for different kinds of kids to show their strengths. I get, if we change what we're doing, it gives other kids a chance to show what they're doing and that might make us more attentive to like, "Oh, when we're not in whole class discussions, this young lady, this young man has all kinds of really interesting things to say. I just need to get myself out of the way a little bit so that person can say those amazing things to their peers."

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Exactly. Yeah, one of the interventions that I co-developed when I was at University of Washington for pre-service teachers was this thing called a mediated field experience. The way we designed it is we had partner teachers in math classrooms that were working toward this sort of instruction, and we would start visiting their classrooms in September, sort of the end of September, so they already had the kids for a couple of weeks-

Justin Reich:                 You're taking your pre-service teachers from the University of Washington to a partner high school in the district to get to know them.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Exactly. We had these partner teachers and before we went in I asked the teachers, "Can you tell me which kids you're concerned about, and tell me what their challenges are, what are they struggling with?" And then I deliberately matched my pre-service teachers with kids who were really different than them. Because I think one of our first go-tos as teachers, when we imagine how a lesson's going to go and who's going to like it, is we think of ourselves as students, and I think it's harder to imagine what somebody who's really, really different from us is going to experience in that lesson.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              I had one student, for example, who was super organized. Like man, I would love her to just organize my life because she just had systems for everything. So I sat her next to the kid who always forgot his homework and whose backpack was a total disaster. That was her student to shadow. I had another student who had never been out of the country, never learned a foreign language. I had him sit next to an immigrant student. The goal wasn't to have them necessarily support those kids, but more to be observers of their experiences in the class. And they had some pretty profound ahas, because I just think it's hard to imagine what it's like to be a student who's so, so different than you, just fundamentally different than you.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              I think part of what teachers need to develop is kind of an empathic imagination for not just what they would like ... We all are inclined to teach the way we prefer to learn, so how do we interrupt that so we can broaden what we're doing, broaden the activities, and make sure that there really are those footholds for other kids, for kids who aren't like us in some important way.

Justin Reich:                 Do you have things that you've done with inservice teachers that get at the same idea? What are some of your favorite [crosstalk 00:25:39]? like professional learning around empathic imagination.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Yeah. One of the things that I've done with inservice teachers a couple of times is ... I actually didn't make this up, this came from a teacher I used to work with. He was department chair and he had his colleagues make a list of all kids who they were concerned about, like, that they might not make a passing grade by the end of the semester. And then write a reason why they think the kid is struggling, and then write what they've done to intervene. So I've done that exercise with teachers. And again, just like the roster exercise, it kind of uncovers, "How much do you actually know about what's going on here?"

Dr. Ilana Horn:              The other thing. One time we took it a step further and we took those lists of kids and we went down to the counseling office and we pulled the cumulative files of those children, to just sort of see what their academic histories were, especially where there were kids who were really perplexing. Teachers found things out like, "Oh, this child just got mainstreamed and recategorized from English language learner where they were in self-contained classrooms that had no real math instruction." So this is not only are they suddenly in an all English classroom, but-

Justin Reich:                 They're woefully under prepared [crosstalk 00:26:53] system.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              ... they're really not well prepared because they've been doing kind of the same kinds of ratios, percent stuff for the last couple years. So they'll see things like that. They saw ... This one was kind of mind boggling. There was a girl who had lost her hearing aid and never had it replaced. Well, I mean ...

Justin Reich:                 It would be difficult to learn in auditory classrooms under those circumstances.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              The teacher was like, "Oh my gosh, I have her in the back of the classroom too." She had no idea. No one had communicated this information. So a part of what this points to again is like, "You want to make schools better? Make these kinds of systems stronger. Make sure that teachers have these kinds of things communicated to them." Because these are things that are above and beyond what teachers typically get in terms of information but they shouldn't be. We shouldn't have to just dig and do a hunt to find out that a child requires a hearing aid and doesn't have one.

Justin Reich:                 Doesn't have one, yeah.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              But that's a position a lot of teachers find themselves in.

Justin Reich:                 Yeah. And that, I think, is the challenge that we want to pose to all of our teachers, our most ambitious teachers, that, "Yep. We all have to work to make these systems stronger. And knowing that all of these systems aren't going to strengthen overnight, we have to think about what we can do individually as a meanwhile to realize that we need to do all we can to get to know our kids as individuals." No, but these concrete strategies about thinking like, "How do I write these things down? How do I ask questions? How do I listen?"

Justin Reich:                 If part of your argument is that our teaching is strengthened with an asset framing that identifies kids strengths, then there's work to do to find that strengths. Part of that work is as much as possible thinking about each individual kid, sometimes doing structured activities with our colleagues to try to find and document those strengths and realize where we're falling short or not doing everything we could to find those strengths, and putting more time and effort into that.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Exactly.

Justin Reich:                 Well, this has been an enormously enriching conversation, Lani. Thanks so much for spending some time with us.

Dr. Ilana Horn:              Well, thanks for having me. It's been fun.

Justin Reich:                 That was Dr. Ilana Horn, who's a professor of math education at Vanderbilt University. Lani's most recent book is Motivated, Designing Math Classrooms Where Students Want To Join In.

Justin Reich:                 I'm Justin Reich and you've been listening to TeachLab from the Teaching Systems Lab at MIT. You can find more resources from Lani Horn at our website, teachlabpodcast.com. That's teachlabpodcast.com. While you're there, you'll find lots of great stuff, including links to our upcoming free online course on EdX called Becoming a More Equitable Educator. You can also check out our YouTube channel, Teaching Systems Lab, where you'll find the full video interview from this episode and even more video content from our online courses. All the work of the Teaching Systems Lab is licensed under a creative commons license, and so we encourage you to use it and share widely.

Justin Reich:     This episode was produced by Aimee Corrigan and Garrett Beazley, was edited by Kate Ellis. It was recorded and mixed by Garrett Beazley, and it was filmed by Denez McAdoo. Thanks, and we'll see you next time.